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庞德《订约》

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11#
发表于 2016-4-26 12:36 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 叶如钢 于 2016-4-26 12:39 编辑
林水云风 发表于 2016-4-26 12:34
I come as a grown child to you(Whitman who is a pig-headed father).
这也是我在网上搜到的一句话 ...


文本上讲不通。 英语里可以很容易表达你理解的那个意思, 他们绝不会写成这样来表达那个意思。
把你的翻译版本翻译回去对照一下就能看出差别了。

何况用的是 come,  而不是 return。
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12#
发表于 2016-4-26 12:41 | 只看该作者
I make a pact with you,Walt Whitman—
I have detested you long enough.
I come to you as a grown child
Who has had a pig-headed father;

这里, you 和 father 不可能是指同一个人。 英文没有那样表达的。
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13#
 楼主| 发表于 2016-4-26 12:47 | 只看该作者
叶如钢 发表于 2016-4-26 12:06
这个分析我也读到过。 这里的说法显然不合理。例如, admitting that his previous behavior has been  ...

刚搜到的:

One of the most influential of the modern poets was Ezra Pound (1885-1972). He wrote the following short poem which seems to be expressing an acceptance by many contemporary poets--but not all, by any means--of Whitman's radical example.

A PACT
I make a pact with you, Walt Whitman -
I have detested you long enough.
I come to you as a grown child
Who has had a pig-headed father;
I am old enough now to make friends.
It was you that broke the new wood,
Now is a time for carving.
We have one sap and one root -
Let there be commerce between us.

Following Walt Whitman, Ezra Pound, T. S. Eliot, and others, many contemporary poets have totally abandoned rhyme and meter, traditional forms such as odes and sonnets, and many have abendoned "poetic diction," including reliance on similes, metaphors, and other imagery. The short poem by Ezra Pound quoted above is an example. There are no rhymes and no detectable meter. There is one image, which is probably what distinguishes it as a poem:

It was you that broke the new wood,
Now is a time for carving.
We have one sap and one root –

It seems highly significant that Ezra Pound, who had such a strong influence on modern poets in America and Great Britain, would look to Whitman as his "father" and acknowledge that it was Whitman who "broke the new wood"--meaning, I suppose, that it was Whitman who figuratively chopped down the tree and made the wood accessible to his thousands of literary descendants. It was a huge achievement for Walt Whitman to demolish poetic conventions which had been slavishly followed ever since the ancient Greeks and ancient Romans. It has had a liberating influence on poets and poetry--although it has to be acknowledged that it might have been responsible for the creation of a considerable amount of bad poetry at the same time.




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14#
发表于 2016-4-26 12:52 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 叶如钢 于 2016-4-26 12:56 编辑
林水云风 发表于 2016-4-26 12:47
刚搜到的:

One of the most influential of the modern poets was Ezra Pound (1885-1972). He wrote ...


不赞同关于 father 的说法。  如果说庞德他们继承了惠特曼的自由体,那根本谈不上惠特曼 pig-headed.
那应当是 progressive and foresighted。

庞德原来很讨厌惠特曼的诗歌, 因为他认为惠特曼的诗歌没有节制, 一览无余。

诗里说父亲 pig-headed, 就是说给他限制。 但他长大了, 可以结识朋友了, 所以来找惠特曼了。
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15#
 楼主| 发表于 2016-4-26 12:58 | 只看该作者
叶如钢 发表于 2016-4-26 12:41
I make a pact with you,Walt Whitman—
I have detested you long enough.
I come to you as a grown ...

根据我看到的几个分析,
I come to you as a grown child
Who has had a pig-headed father;
这句应理解为,我长大了,接近你,就像我长大了,接近我顽固的父亲。
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16#
 楼主| 发表于 2016-4-26 13:07 | 只看该作者
叶如钢 发表于 2016-4-26 12:52
不赞同关于 father 的说法。  如果说庞德他们继承了惠特曼的自由体,那根本谈不上惠特曼 pig-headed.
...

你的理解,我暂时还不能理解,觉得比较绕。他不喜欢惠特曼,他仍不认为可从惠特曼那里继承些东西,那他找惠特曼交朋友为啥呢?
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17#
发表于 2016-4-26 13:09 | 只看该作者
林水云风 发表于 2016-4-26 12:58
根据我看到的几个分析,
I come to you as a grown child
Who has had a pig-headed father;

那么惠特曼为何是 pig-headed?
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18#
发表于 2016-4-26 13:11 | 只看该作者
林水云风 发表于 2016-4-26 13:07
你的理解,我暂时还不能理解,觉得比较绕。他不喜欢惠特曼,他仍不认为可从惠特曼那里继承些东西,那他找 ...

他原来确实不喜欢惠特曼。 但他说, 已经讨厌够久了。 现在认识到, 惠特曼其实是开伐了诗歌木材的人。
现在他要去把那些原木雕刻成艺术品。  这里他仍然认为自己高于惠特曼。
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19#
 楼主| 发表于 2016-4-26 13:13 | 只看该作者
叶如钢 发表于 2016-4-26 13:09
那么惠特曼为何是 pig-headed?

惠特曼并不是 pig-headed,而是庞德认为他pig-headed,假设庞德真与父亲有矛盾,他父亲也不一定就是顽固,而很可能是庞德认为他父亲那个样子。所以我译为“我总以为父亲顽固”。
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20#
发表于 2016-4-26 13:15 | 只看该作者
林水云风 发表于 2016-4-26 12:58
根据我看到的几个分析,
I come to you as a grown child
Who has had a pig-headed father;

他的意思是, 我来接近你, 就像一个原来有个顽固父亲的孩子长大了, 能够自己结识朋友了, 不再受父亲限制了。
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